Magic Sam about Electric Mud in Post War Blues Forum

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Magic Sam about Electric Mud

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MaskedMarvel

Magic Sam about Electric Mud

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Deepest Blue

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Apr 18 05 10:03 AM

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From the archives : http://www.the-blindman.com/Archives/1960.s/MSam69MM.pdf

QUOTE

" But blues has been taken by so many people who don't know what they're doing
with it and I'm afraid that they're really going to mess it up. And that's a pity."

He cited the pitiful Muddy Waters fiasco, ` Electric Mud,' as a case in point. "
Someone said to me ` hey man, dig this ` and so I said OK. I took it out, played one
cut and that was IT. I said `take it off --now!' and I put it back in the sleeve. I don't
know what they're doing, but it sure sounds like nothing to me!"

Muddy Waters didn't know what he was doing ?

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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SArkBluesDawg

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Apr 18 05 11:19 AM

I wouldn't go so far as to make an inclusive statement such as that, but Electric Mud is definitely not one of his better offerings. Broaden the net a little, and consider the fact that most artists over an entire career put out works that certainly aren't considered to be up to the level of their others.

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The Blindman

#2

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Deepest Blue

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Apr 18 05 11:59 AM

Here's a review from AMG.

QUOTE

In an attempt to make Muddy more sellable to his newly-found White audience, Chess lumbered him with Hendrix-influenced psychedelic blues arrangements for Electric Mud. Commercially, actually, the results weren't bad; Marshall Chess claims it sold between 150,000 and 200,000 copies. Musically, it was as ill-advised as putting Dustin Hoffman into a Star Wars epic. Guitarists Pete Cosey and Phil Upchurch are very talented players, but Muddy's brand of downhome electric blues suffered greatly at the hands of extended fuzzy solos. Muddy and band overhaul classics like "I Just Want to Make Love to You" and "Hoochie Coochie Man," and do a ludicrous cover of "Let's Spend the Night Together"; wah-wah guitars and occasional wailing soprano sax bounce around like loose basketballs. It's a classically wrongheaded, crass update of the blues for a modern audience.
Richie Unterberger, All Music Guide

BLINDMAN

Aberdeen - Scotland

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Blueswriter

#3

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Apr 18 05 12:05 PM

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Apr 18 2005, 05:03 AM)

QUOTE

"But blues has been taken by so many people who don't know what they're doing with it and I'm afraid that they're really going to mess it up. And that's a pity."

He cited the pitiful Muddy Waters fiasco, 'Electric Mud,' as a case in point." Someone said to me 'hey man, dig this' and so I said OK. I took it out, played one cut and that was IT. I said "take it off --now!" and I put it back in the sleeve. I don't know what they're doing, but it sure sounds like nothing to me!"

Muddy Waters didn't know what he was doing ?

In truth, what Sam seems to have said was that he (Sam) didn't know what they (possibly the musicians on Electric Mud) were doing. He did say it sounded like nothing to him however. And in speaking of musicians who took to blues who didn't know what they were doing, I doubt Muddy was in the net he cast so widely. And has been discussed many times here before, Electric Mud was an abomination brought on by Marshall Chess. Muddy was basically doing his 'job' for Chess when he recorded it.

Some might say that Sam was in a fortunate position in that he wasn't put in a spot to try and appeal to a younger generation with psychedelic blues. Muddy wasn't the only one on the Chess roster to bear fruit due to Marshall's desires in that department. Wolf, Little Walter, Bo Diddley and Muddy together for Super Blues or its followup, Wolf himself on This Is Howlin' Wolf's New Record...

And as much as Sam might not have been happy with Electric Mud (most people I know agree it's terrible), Sam himself produced a few duds along the way. Some of his Chief sides aren't what I'd call riveting blues... Square Dance Rock Pts. 1 & 2 anyone?

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The Blindman

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Apr 18 05 12:11 PM

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Apr 18 2005, 12:05 PM)

Some of his Chief sides aren't what I'd call riveting blues... Square Dance Rock Pts. 1 & 2 anyone?

I'll pass on those tracks BW if you don't mind.

BLINDMAN

Aberdeen - Scotland

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Blueswriter

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Apr 18 05 12:40 PM

QUOTE (The Blindman @ Apr 18 2005, 07:11 AM)

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Apr 18 2005, 12:05 PM)

Some of his Chief sides aren't what I'd call riveting blues... Square Dance Rock Pts. 1 & 2 anyone?

I'll pass on those tracks BW if you don't mind.

I don't find that pairing essential when you look at Sam's recordings for Cobra or some of his other Chief work - not to mention his Delmark sessions of a few years later. Blue Light Boogie and Mr. Charlie never hit my monkey nerve either.

I think when you consider all the artists, and all the recordings they made over the years, there are bound to be a few off-points here and there. Sadly, some of the Chess artists that bowed to Marshall's brain farts were put in the position of recording entire LPs of crap.

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spann807

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Apr 18 05 12:45 PM

I always felt the "Electric Mud" oddity was just a "grasp the moment & let's try and make some money" thing. Not too unlike William Shatner covering a Dylan song. At best it was like the Edsel or New Coke - it seemed like a good idea at the time. The hard reality is that record companys are not much about laboring for love (save for the little indies, God love 'em) but about making a profit. Marshall has certainly tried to re-invent history and put a positive spin on this album in resent years but as they say, it's all about what's in the grooves. In a way, I can hardly blame him. His father & uncle will forever be linked to the likes of Muddy Waters, Little Walter, SBW, Lowell Fulson, Ramsey Lewis, Chuck Berry, Etta James, Bo Diddley, Ahmed Jamal, the Wolf ... the list of legends is almost endless. Marshall's legacy there is pretty much "Electric Mud". That's a pretty big fumble. I don't know if it's only by comparison and the fact that Spann was involved, but there are actually a couple cuts on Muddy's "After The Rain" I can almost live with. But "Electric Mud" ... that's a nose pincher from start to finish.

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MaskedMarvel

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Apr 18 05 12:46 PM

QUOTE (SArkBluesDawg @ Apr 18 2005, 01:19 PM)

Broaden the net a little, and consider the fact that most artists over an entire career put out works that certainly aren't considered to be up to the level of their others.

True, but what I understand from Magic Sam is that he wasn't talking about artists not being in the peak of their career, it seems he was worried about people "messing it up" , messing up the Blues. And his example was Electric Mud. Maybe, was his worries because it was someone as important as Muddy Waters , that many will follow him and it will mess up the Blues ?

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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SArkBluesDawg

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Apr 18 05 1:52 PM

That could very well be, MM...good point.

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kingbee

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Apr 18 05 2:04 PM

What's the "net" y'all are speaking of. Could it be the hair net for Muddy's "do"? I thought that was the best thing about the record.

kingbee

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Muddylives

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Apr 18 05 2:09 PM

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Apr 18 2005, 12:46 PM)

QUOTE (SArkBluesDawg @ Apr 18 2005, 01:19 PM)

Broaden the net a little, and consider the fact that most artists over an entire career put out works that certainly aren't considered to be up to the level of their others.

True, but what I understand from Magic Sam is that he wasn't talking about artists not being in the peak of their career, it seems he was worried about people "messing it up" , messing up the Blues. And his example was Electric Mud. Maybe, was his worries because it was someone as important as Muddy Waters , that many will follow him and it will mess up the Blues ?

In historical context, I think that the comment made a lot of sense. (In fact, even out of historical context, it makes a lot of sense!) "Messing up the blues" in that fashion was a relatively new phenomenon from late 50s and 60s, brought on by the realization of record companies that the real blues money is in marketing it to white rock crowds who have no real appreciation of its more subtle or artistic qualities. Electric Mud was a case in point.

Muddy

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rshurman

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Apr 18 05 2:13 PM

QUOTE (The Blindman @ Apr 18 2005, 12:11 PM)

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Apr 18 2005, 12:05 PM)

Some of his Chief sides aren't what I'd call riveting blues... Square Dance Rock Pts. 1 & 2 anyone?

I'll pass on those tracks BW if you don't mind.

BLINDMAN

Acually, if one gets past the title and has any tolerance for country-western, "Square Dance Rock" is a pretty interesting c & w duel between Sam and Earl Hooker.

Chicagoland

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Blueswriter

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Apr 18 05 2:42 PM

QUOTE (rshurman @ Apr 18 2005, 09:13 AM)

QUOTE (The Blindman @ Apr 18 2005, 12:11 PM)

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Apr 18 2005, 12:05 PM)

Some of his Chief sides aren't what I'd call riveting blues... Square Dance Rock Pts. 1 & 2 anyone?

I'll pass on those tracks BW if you don't mind.

BLINDMAN

Acually, if one gets past the title and has any tolerance for country-western, "Square Dance Rock" is a pretty interesting c & w duel between Sam and Earl Hooker.

No doubt about that but it's pretty cheesed up when you compare it to the larger percentage of Sam's catalog. Do The Camel Walk also has some really nice guitar in it but that's another cut of Sam's that generally isn't discussed in conversations of his best work.

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rshurman

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Apr 18 05 3:08 PM

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Apr 18 2005, 02:42 PM)

QUOTE (rshurman @ Apr 18 2005, 09:13 AM)

QUOTE (The Blindman @ Apr 18 2005, 12:11 PM)

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Apr 18 2005, 12:05 PM)

Some of his Chief sides aren't what I'd call riveting blues... Square Dance Rock Pts. 1 & 2 anyone?

I'll pass on those tracks BW if you don't mind.

BLINDMAN

Acually, if one gets past the title and has any tolerance for country-western, "Square Dance Rock" is a pretty interesting c & w duel between Sam and Earl Hooker.

No doubt about that but it's pretty cheesed up when you compare it to the larger percentage of Sam's catalog. Do The Camel Walk also has some really nice guitar in it but that's another cut of Sam's that generally isn't discussed in conversations of his best work.

I guess one listener's cheese is another's lactose intolerance.

Not all of Sam's work was stellar with the Chiefs rightly being held in somewhat lesser regard than the Cobras (and I don't even think Sam played the guitar on his last 45 "I'll Pay You Back" which was produced by Bobby Rush and was an Isley Brothers knockoff/answer to "It's Your Thing" which Bobby still incorporates into his show as part of "28 Days"). But I don't think one could fairly rank any of Sam's recordings as an abomination within several time zones of "Electric Mud," or use his lesser records to diminish the validity of his concern that the kind of people who would do that to Muddy (I don't see him criticizing Muddy in his comments, just the people perverting his music) were messing up the blues. The "Electric Mud" discussion has played out enough elsewhere that I'll stop here...

Chicagoland

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JellyRoll Baker

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Apr 18 05 3:14 PM

QUOTE (spann807 @ Apr 18 2005, 12:45 PM)

Not too unlike William Shatner covering a Dylan song.

Hey! That's a classic!

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spann807

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Apr 18 05 3:41 PM

I must say, all points made here are very well taken indeed!

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Blueswriter

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Apr 18 05 4:10 PM

QUOTE (rshurman @ Apr 18 2005, 10:08 AM)

Not all of Sam's work was stellar with the Chiefs rightly being held in somewhat lesser regard than the Cobras... But I don't think one could fairly rank any of Sam's recordings as an abomination within several time zones of "Electric Mud," or use his lesser records to diminish the validity of his concern that the kind of people who would do that to Muddy...

I certainly wasn't intent on ranking Sam's Chief sides in the same territory as Electric Mud. In comparison to that, the Chief sides stand up pretty well. My point being that they were low points in the Magic Sam catalog when compared to his earlier work on Cobra as well as some of his later recordings.

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rshurman

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Apr 18 05 4:53 PM

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Apr 18 2005, 04:10 PM)

QUOTE (rshurman @ Apr 18 2005, 10:08 AM)

Not all of Sam's work was stellar with the Chiefs rightly being held in somewhat lesser regard than the Cobras... But I don't think one could fairly rank any of Sam's recordings as an abomination within several time zones of "Electric Mud," or use his lesser records to diminish the validity of his concern that the kind of people who would do that to Muddy...

I certainly wasn't intent on ranking Sam's Chief sides in the same territory as Electric Mud. In comparison to that, the Chief sides stand up pretty well. My point being that they were low points in the Magic Sam catalog when compared to his earlier work on Cobra as well as some of his later recordings.

Understood; my comments (other than the cheese reference) were about the thread in general, not a debate with you. What's the actual source for that quote anyhow? (I know it's probably in Blindman's archives.)

It would have been interesting to see where Stax would have taken Sam if the rumors about them signing him were true. One thing for sure: it's a darn shame he didn't get a chance to see where the blues went from there...

Chicagoland

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bluesombrero

#18

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Apr 19 05 12:20 AM

What was Chuck D smoking that caused ELECTRIC MUD to have that profound influence on him?

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Blueswriter

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Apr 19 05 2:37 AM

QUOTE (bluesombrero @ Apr 18 2005, 07:20 PM)

What was Chuck D smoking that caused ELECTRIC MUD to have that profound influence on him?

Old socks from the laundry hamper of Marshall Chess I'd guess...

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MaskedMarvel

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Apr 19 05 4:44 PM

QUOTE (spann807 @ Apr 18 2005, 02:45 PM)

I always felt the "Electric Mud" oddity was just a "grasp the moment & let's try and make some money" thing.

Electric Mud wasn't the only "mess up the Blues" project. I think many , including MS were thinking about money while they played. Maybe it's not odd.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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