What is the blues? in Pre War Blues Forum

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What is the blues?

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SDV

What is the blues?

Lead

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 53

Apr 23 12 9:46 AM

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I was looking at my fairly extensive pre-war collection and I suddenly realised that many people on this forum probably would consider about half of the songs not to be blues. It contains a large number of rags and "hokum" tunes, as well as pre- blues (e.g. Henry Thomas) and folk tunes (e.g. Some of Mississippi John Hurt's stuff). There is, of course, plenty of hard core Blues.

This got me to thinking. Do members of the forum operate the same fairly wide definition of the blues, or do they only listen to one strict genre?

In any case, what exactly defines a blues? Is it a strictly musical definition or structure, which would be appreciated by the musicians on the forum? Or is it an undefinable essence that pervades certain tracks?

I came to the blues through the predominantly White British blues boom of the 1960s, which led me to the Chicago blues scene, which in turn led me to the pre-war stuff. This probably affcts my definition of the blues. The giants of the Chicago scene though labelled bluesmen we must remember had a lot of influences. Thet must have heard a lot of rags, hokum music and folk tunes as well as blues.

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kinghendrix

#1

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6385

Apr 23 12 12:31 PM

Endless debate, and good exercise to regularly revitalize a blues forum !! My way to manage my "blues" stuff includes the shared "strict genre" and this absolutely personal, more or less extendable, "fairly wide definition" that you mention. And my own borders move so often that I have no real idea of the precise area where I find my blues.

Jean-Claude
Lyon (France)

Gallery Blues Attic
My facebook page

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DerZauberer

#2

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 66

Apr 23 12 2:08 PM

I have quite a lot of stuff, mostly Pre-War and "Classic" Chicago / Chess stuff. I have digitized all my CDs quite a while ago, and my dad was so kind to add the highlights from his LP collection in digital format as well.

To answer your question: ALL my "blues" type tracks (a few thousands of them) are located in a folder called "Blues&Roots", and practically all tracks have "Blues" as the genre tag. I don't differentitate between "North Mississippi Hill Country Blues, Post-War" and "Classic Delta Blues, Pre-War", not even between "Chicago Blues" and "Texas Blues".

Why? Because I find genre categorization really confining. Take some of the greats as an example:

Leadbelly, for example, is pretty much impossible to pin down as an artist. Folksy style stuff, nursery rhymes, some pretty hard-driving blues, it's all there - do I really want to find genres for each of his songs? Do I need a genre called Leadbelly? No, its the blues... in his words "good morning blues, blues how do you do".

Even "the King of the Delta Blues", Robert Johnson, did not strictly record "blues". "They're Red Hot" is a perfect example. My personal all-time favourite Son House played Gospel numbers with all his heart, and I still cannot find a fitting category for the "American Defense" from the Library of Congress sessions. Nowhere near classical Delta Blues for sure.

I have some "rootsy" stuff in there too, much of Alan Lomax recording efforts. The great "Sounds of the South" compilation has it all - Mississippi Blues, live Gospel sessions, prison gangs, field hollers, children's songs, bluegrass, whatever - still, I think it's all categorized as "Blues" because that's where I would look for it.

Of course I "know" some further sub-genres, but I wouldn't want to "pin" them onto certain artists or tracks, because to me, it's the artists' body of work that counts, not the genre / category.

I like my "roots" music, be it Blues or otherwise - no need for further details. The Blues is everything!

(Mind you - I do file African/Mali stuff that's pretty close to Blues under "World Music" and "Jazz" ist a separate folder... still, a great many ragtime songs are in Blues" because they are played by Blues artists).

That's my 5 cents. More like a quarter, really, got carried away by inspiration here.

Don't never follow your first mind, cause that's the one that's wrong. 'Cause the Devil beats God to you every time. (Son House)

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7844473

#3

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 30580

Apr 23 12 2:21 PM

QUOTE (kinghendrix @ April 23, 2012 02:31 pm)

Endless debate, and good exercise to regularly revitalize a blues forum !! My way to manage my "blues" stuff includes the shared "strict genre" and this absolutely personal, more or less extendable, "fairly wide definition" that you mention. And my own borders move so often that I have no real idea of the precise area where I find my blues.

My take on this as well. I've - I'm sure we all have - heard some 12 bars "blues" that had no blues in them, not even an ounce, and I've heard songs that didn't follow the I, IV & V rule that felt so blues to me, the way they sounded AND the way they moved me too ! user posted image

Rene
Paris, France.

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Madman Sam

#4

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 1708

Apr 23 12 4:15 PM

It really just comes down to your hat...and the brand of smokes you smoke...and of course shades help...

"I don't want the blues to tickle my fancy.
I want the blues to reach down my throat, grab me by the asshole, and pull me inside out." - Madman Sam

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Pea Vine

#5

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 94

Apr 23 12 4:45 PM

Aint' nuthin but a low down achin' chill...

or, the Wolf explains it clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ou-6A3MKow

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SDV

#6

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 53

Apr 23 12 4:46 PM

I raise the question, because I have heard a number of pre-war artists that I rather like such as Mississippi John Hurt and Henry Thomas, be denounced as not "real bluesmen".

And whilst I really love Blind Willie Johnson, he was by a strict definition certainly not a bluesman.

Whilst I have a real love of Charley Patton, Robert Johnson, Tyommy Johnson, Bukka White, etc., I also like some of their contemporaries who had a wider repertoire. And as one of the earlier correspondents noted, even Robert Johnson was not always strictly blues.

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ForumerDeletedUser

#7

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Pale Blue

Posts: 0

Apr 23 12 5:30 PM

QUOTE (SDV @ April 23, 2012 05:46 pm)

I raise the question, because I have heard a number of pre-war artists that I rather like such as Mississippi John Hurt and Henry Thomas, be denounced as not "real bluesmen"

In my view singers such as Mississippi John Hurt and Henry Thomas were "songsters" rather than bluesmen. To quote Peter Guralnick from his Listener's Guide to the Blues (Quarto/Facts on File, Inc., 1982, page 17) songsters were

QUOTE

singers whose repertoire included a wide sampling of dance tunes, spirituals, adaptations of white traditional material, pop numbers and black narrative ballads.

I think that's a pretty accurate description.

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Pan

#8

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 677

Apr 23 12 6:35 PM

This topic makes me think of the recently found track by Tommy Johnson, who many consider to be the father of Delta blues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8EuAt5YTPQ

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RSKKZ

#9

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 241

Apr 23 12 6:39 PM

For me, I can hear the obvious addition and change to the music as it moved North and East. Instruments were added. Tempos were changed to accomodate the type of people in the area. Plus the music just developed natuarally by interpretation of the individual and the periods.

As the Original MS Delta Blues moved North, you can hear the changes as it sweeps through Memphis and then Kansas City and St Louis, and then Chicago...
It picks up more horns, and swing, and other local influences from the area.

A MS Delta musician who brought his skills North to Chicago back in the 1940's, would have begun playing with musicians from the Chicago Area who had a different perspective on music as well as LIFE. They would come together to create an appealing sound. An updated style with broader roots..

I personally gravitate to the primative style of the Early MS Delta.
I live in MS and relate to it more. Although I Love almost all types of music, the real BLUES for me are in the MS Delta Early Days of Sloan, Patton, Sims, Brown, House, ...up to the (Muddy Waters/ BB King) period.

Muddy and BB are GREAT but I consider them the next generation.... and they incorporated a more liberal worldly appealing style to their roots to create a new accepted sound... (popular).

RSKKZ

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SDV

#10

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 53

Apr 23 12 6:50 PM

Indeed, I remember listening to the new Tommy Johnson track when it was released. If I hadn't been told that it was Tommy Johnson, I would never have guessed. Certainly not classic delta blues.

I can't get too worked up if people label Mississippi John Hurt a "songster" rather than a real bluesman, as long as it isn't being used as an insult, and I am afraid that I have heard it used in the past to denigrate Hurt and his music.

My own personal preference does go to the Mississippi delta. One of the highlights of my youth was seeing Son House play at the 100 Club in London back in 1970. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate Mississippi John Hurt, Henry Thomas, the Mississippi Sheiks or the Memphis Jug Band.

Although I started this thread, I really think it is a bit counter-productive to get too worked up about what constitutes the blues. Afterall, you can't even say that the whole of Patton's output is strictly blues. Or indeed Blind Lemon Jefferson's.

We need to remember that many of these players were trying to earn enough money to stay alive. In other words, they played what their audiences wanted. If that meant playing non-blues, then that is what they played.

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cih

#11

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 1283

Apr 23 12 7:17 PM

what evidence is there that many of the 'original' MS delta musicians didn't pick up the blues from travelling shows playing the compositions of composers like WC Handy?

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RSKKZ

#12

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 241

Apr 23 12 7:22 PM

There is plenty of evidence of where it came from...

WC HAndy picked it up from them... not the other way around..

The Blues deepest Roots are African/American Slave origin...

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ForumerDeletedUser

#13

[-]

Pale Blue

Posts: 0

Apr 23 12 7:24 PM

QUOTE (J.A.W. @ April 23, 2012 06:30 pm)

QUOTE (SDV @ April 23, 2012 05:46 pm)

I raise the question, because I have heard a number of pre-war artists that I rather like such as Mississippi John Hurt and Henry Thomas, be denounced as not "real bluesmen"

In my view singers such as Mississippi John Hurt and Henry Thomas were "songsters" rather than bluesmen. To quote Peter Guralnick from his Listener's Guide to the Blues (Quarto/Facts on File, Inc., 1982, page 17) songsters were

QUOTE

singers whose repertoire included a wide sampling of dance tunes, spirituals, adaptations of white traditional material, pop numbers and black narrative ballads.

I think that's a pretty accurate description.

QUOTE (SDV @ April 23, 2012 07:50 pm)

I can't get too worked up if people label Mississippi John Hurt a "songster" rather than a real bluesman, as long as it isn't being used as an insult, and I am afraid that I have heard it used in the past to denigrate Hurt and his music.

I'm sure Guralnick didn't use the term "songsters" as an insult (neither did I), on the contrary, he writes about them with the utmost respect. I've never heard it used as a denigrating term, but maybe that's because I'm in Europe. Anyway, as I said I think Guralnick's description is pretty accurate; it refers to singers who had a broader repertoire than "just" blues songs and I don't see what's denigrating about that.

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cih

#14

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 1283

Apr 23 12 7:29 PM

QUOTE (RSKKZ @ April 23, 2012 07:22 pm)

There is plenty of evidence of where it came from...

WC HAndy picked it up from them... not the other way around..

The Blues deepest Roots are African/American Slave origin...

well not from Son House, who learned guitar much later. Was the route from slave music to Charlie Patton more direct than the route to, say, Ma Rainey?

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RSKKZ

#15

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 241

Apr 23 12 7:33 PM

In this discussion, yes...
His route is more direct, in my opinion.

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SDV

#16

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 53

Apr 23 12 7:34 PM

Not suggesting that anyone on this board is using "songster" as an insult, but as someone who has lived in London most of his life I have certainly heard it used as an insult by some blues enthusiasts.

For the record, I find the level of contributions on this board to be very fair and open.

I suppose that at the end of the day all I am arguing is for a wider definition of what constitutes blues.

I thought the discussion earlier this year on White blues from the pre-war period illustrates very nicely the difficulties of having a too strict a definition.

One more point, Patton was about 40 when he was first recorded in 1929. I wonder what he was playing in his late teens or early 20s? Was he playing classic delta blues 1905? Indeed, did the delta blues exist in 1905?

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ForumerDeletedUser

#17

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Pale Blue

Posts: 0

Apr 23 12 7:40 PM

QUOTE (SDV @ April 23, 2012 08:34 pm)

Not suggesting that anyone on this board is using "songster" as an insult, but as someone who has lived in London most of his life I have certainly heard it used as an insult by some blues enthusiasts.

Well, then those blues "enthusiasts" are narrow-minded idiots.

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cih

#18

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 1283

Apr 23 12 7:48 PM

QUOTE (SDV @ April 23, 2012 07:34 pm)

Indeed, did the delta blues exist in 1905?

I don't know of any evidence for it. The thing is, if we acknowledge that people like Ma Rainey pre-date most of the delta players we know (and all of the recordings), but nevertheless claim that she lies somewhere further adrift from the 'source' than the guitarists, that seems to suggest a pre-conception somewhere along the way about what the 'real' blues is?

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Muddylives

#19

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 5140

Apr 23 12 10:17 PM

QUOTE (cih @ April 23, 2012 07:48 pm)

QUOTE (SDV @ April 23, 2012 07:34 pm)

Indeed, did the delta blues exist in 1905?

I don't know of any evidence for it. The thing is, if we acknowledge that people like Ma Rainey pre-date most of the delta players we know (and all of the recordings), but nevertheless claim that she lies somewhere further adrift from the 'source' than the guitarists, that seems to suggest a pre-conception somewhere along the way about what the 'real' blues is?

I believe I read somewhere that Patton's Pony Blues dates back to around that time (1905). Of course, I doubt that there is any proof of it. Henry Sloan should have also been playing blues in the Delta back then. Didn't W.C. Handy report hearing the musician singing a blues about where the Southern crosses the Dog around that time?

As far as urban versus rural roots of the blues, that is indeed a confusing story to try to get a handle on. They took from each other. Even if you could figure out which was the chicken and which was the egg, you still wouldn't know which came first.

Muddy

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SDV

#20

[-]

Deepest Blue

Posts: 53

Apr 23 12 10:34 PM

Whilst it is true that W C Handy reported hearing a guitarist using a knife in 1903 and singing about where the Southern crosses the Dog, was he playing a blues? Or was he playing some form of pre-blues, more akin to the music being played by the likes of Henry Thomas?

I have also read that Patton's Pony Blues goes way back, but have never seen any real proof. We know that he had been playing it for some time before he recorded it in 1929, but we don't know for sure - or at least I don't - for how many years he had been playing it.

In reality, we know very little about blues between 1900 and 1920, about it's structure or it's form. Clearly blues existed before 1925, but when it evolved from the various pre-forms into the fully formed delta blues is still a matter of debate.

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