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#1

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6748

Dec 7 04 12:26 AM

I think it's the combination of the leader and the band more than it's one over another. Without the bands (Muddy's or Wolf's) working as a unit with the frontman, I'd say things would be quite different as far as blues classics go.

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Sassie

#2

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 18977

Dec 7 04 3:16 AM

We've all seen "masters" excel more with certain backup than with others; likewise we've seen contemporary blues bands succeed (or fail) on the strength of their combo. And so, I voted it's the whole enchilada that either works or doesn't.

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Little Joe

#3

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Posts: 133

Dec 8 04 10:00 AM

ouch, this is a tough one..
i think the lead makes a classic blues-song...especially Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf among other great blues-singers.
i believe it's all about the singing, they had the power to pull all the musicians behind them with their song.
without the lead's singing, the band will just 'surf' around a bit.

though i must admit; it doesn't work for all the bands! for example rock-music...

but i believe that all the great blues-singers actually lead the musicians thru a song......Both Muddy and Wolf have played with many different sidemen, and it always 'rocks'!

i hope this makes any sense?!

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#4

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 826

Dec 8 04 3:50 PM

It does. In front of largely black audiences, the crowd always relates to the singer first. I've played in front of both all white as well as all black audiences and tho both do relate to the singer first, it is much more important to the black audiences wheras among many white audiences, the solos seem to take on a far greater importance at times than the vocalist.

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Boston, MA
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#5

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Dec 9 04 10:08 PM

As an example Muddy Waters, I think that Muddy Waters was still great even with lame band , however it was important for him to pick the best available musicians for his band. If it was leader VS band I would pick leader, since the 3rd option goes for both I picked it, it made things much easier... I second Rock audience will look for the solos, I didn't ever experienced what black audience would do because I never been at such, however what great about this place is that I can read Barbeque Bob who has been there. Thanks.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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#6

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6748

Dec 9 04 10:42 PM

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Dec 9 2004, 05:08 PM)

As an example Muddy Waters, I think that Muddy Waters was still great even with lame band...

Guess you haven't listened to Electric Mud or After The Rain (which is better than its predecessor) recently...

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#7

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Dec 9 04 10:55 PM

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Dec 10 2004, 12:42 AM)

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Dec 9 2004, 05:08 PM)

As an example Muddy Waters, I think that Muddy Waters was still great even with lame band...

Guess you haven't listened to Electric Mud or After The Rain (which is better than its predecessor) recently...

Any rule has some exceptions

I listened to Electric Mud once and I think it's not Blues it's Rock or something, Muddy tried to go outside the Blues. If he would explain that band how not to disturb him doing some Blues (basically be as much quiet as they can) I believe it would still be good.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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#8

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 826

Dec 9 04 10:59 PM

MM, that wasn't Muddy's doing at all, but Marshall Chess is the real culprit for those horror shows along with that white Howlin' Wolf album debacle. Having met both of them personally, I can tell you first hand they both absolutely hated those recordings!!!!

Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
MP3's: http://music.mp3lizard.com/barbequebob/
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#9

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6748

Dec 9 04 11:14 PM

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Dec 9 2004, 05:55 PM)

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Dec 10 2004, 12:42 AM)

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Dec 9 2004, 05:08 PM)

As an example Muddy Waters, I think that Muddy Waters was still great even with lame band...

Guess you haven't listened to Electric Mud or After The Rain (which is better than its predecessor) recently...

Any rule has some exceptions

I'm curious where (other than those recordings) you heard Muddy with a lame band. As a general rule, his bands were made up of top-notch musicians... Little Walter, James Cotton, George "Harmonica" Smith, Otis Spann, Pinetop Perkins, Snake Johnson, Pee Wee Madison, Sammy Lawhorn, etc. My point being that Muddy's recorded works are mostly with these and other musicians in support of him.

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#10

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Dec 9 04 11:15 PM

BBQB, what you said now made some order in my thoughts about it. It doesn't sound to me like Muddy was into it, his singing on it is like someone took all the fun out of him.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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#11

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Dec 9 04 11:26 PM

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Dec 10 2004, 01:14 AM)

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Dec 9 2004, 05:55 PM)

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Dec 10 2004, 12:42 AM)

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Dec 9 2004, 05:08 PM)

As an example Muddy Waters, I think that Muddy Waters was still great even with lame band...

Guess you haven't listened to Electric Mud or After The Rain (which is better than its predecessor) recently...

Any rule has some exceptions

I'm curious where (other than those recordings) you heard Muddy with a lame band. As a general rule, his bands were made up of top-notch musicians... Little Walter, James Cotton, George "Harmonica" Smith, Otis Spann, Pinetop Perkins, Snake Johnson, Pee Wee Madison, Sammy Lawhorn, etc. My point being that Muddy's recorded works are mostly made up of these and other musicians in support of him.

I never heard the 2nd one, as for other lame combos for Muddy, as said, I don't have even the Electric Mud, I heard it in a record store after reading about it and I remember it. All I have of Muddy is about 8 cds with about 140 tracks without duplications and it's all very good. I have to check about the combos I never checked too much which were lame. However, I heard claims about Son Simms to be a lame player and his stuff with both Muddy (with the other members Lomax recorded) and Patton is IMO great. I heard claims that Willie Johnson and Willie Steele weren't as good as other Wolf players on other combos, though, most of my favorite Wolf are from that combo. IMO theres something which is communication and cooperation that can make average player a great contributor, on the other hand a great player who lack some of it may ruin a good stuff. Chess and before that Bluebird realized it so they would use the same team to back several players, because they were team players although others might have more virtuoso abilities.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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#12

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6748

Dec 9 04 11:55 PM

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Dec 9 2004, 06:26 PM)

... as for other lame combos for Muddy, as said, I don't have even the Electric Mud, I heard it in a record store after reading about it and I remember it. All I have of Muddy is about 8 cds with about 140 tracks without duplications and it's all very good.

My error then... I thought your comment "Muddy Waters was still great even with lame band" was a reference to a particular recording (or group of recordings) where you thought Muddy was in top form although the band was lame.

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#13

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Dec 10 04 12:03 AM

QUOTE (Blueswriter @ Dec 10 2004, 01:55 AM)

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Dec 9 2004, 06:26 PM)

... as for other lame combos for Muddy, as said, I don't have even the Electric Mud, I heard it in a record store after reading about it and I remember it. All I have of Muddy is about 8 cds with about 140 tracks without duplications and it's all very good.

My error then... I thought your comment "Muddy Waters was still great even with lame band" was a reference to a particular recording (or group of recordings) where you thought Muddy was in top form although the band was lame.

I see, the "was" should be "would be" or something in my post.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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JellyRoll Baker

#14

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 2745

Dec 10 04 1:13 AM

From my point of view as a listener, a charismatic frontman is great to give the band some focus but the greatest frontman in the world is useless without a good rhythm section driving him along. It's like have a shiny Cadillac with loud stereo, but no engine.

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#15

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 826

Dec 10 04 3:59 AM

Jelly Roll, I couldn't have said that better myself!!! Thank You!!!

Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
MP3's: http://music.mp3lizard.com/barbequebob/
My Soundclick page
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte

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#16

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6748

Dec 10 04 4:16 AM

QUOTE (JellyRoll Baker @ Dec 9 2004, 08:13 PM)

From my point of view as a listener, a charismatic frontman is great to give the band some focus but the greatest frontman in the world is useless without a good rhythm section driving him along. It's like have a shiny Cadillac with loud stereo, but no engine.

But the other side of that coin is having a great band with a frontman who doesn't quite cut the mustard... that'd be like having a hot dog bun with relish, onions, celery salt and all the rest of the fixins but no hot dog!

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#17

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 826

Dec 10 04 4:28 AM

I've also seen bands that once they've gotten themselves a better front man, got markedly better. Bad front man in a band is like watching a bikini contest with all the contestants wearing peasant skirts all during the contest.

Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
MP3's: http://music.mp3lizard.com/barbequebob/
My Soundclick page
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte

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