Who is the most popular pre-war Blues ? in Pre War Blues Forum

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Who is the most popular pre-war Blues ?

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MaskedMarvel

Who is the most popular pre-war Blues ?

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Apr 29 04 4:26 PM

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I wonder who is the most popular pre-war Blues artist choice by today's Blues listeners and fans. My guess is Robert Johnson. But I saw that Son House as an example, Tommy Johnson, Lemon, and Patton might get even better. I remember that polls at the DMF it wasn't all the RJ , and so I saw in other forums.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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Jack of Diamonds

#1

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 2558

Apr 29 04 4:35 PM

I think there is a pretty sharp dividing line between the more casual and the more obsessive (?) blues fan. RJ's songs are clear, the lyrics well thought out inventive (all of his 'borrowings' notwithstanding) and the playing masterful, and while I've got a substantial number of pre-war CDs, RJ is still the one I listen to the most.

Patton, House, BLJ and Skip James are always going to put a lot of people off because of the very messed up 78s their CDs are mastered from. Tommy Johnson's classic songs seem to have survived rather better. I will also admit to the laziness of listening to 'rediscovery' CDs by Skip and House more often than the originals. MJH is an exception - the original recordings are so wonderfully clear.

"Lightnin' change when Lightnin' want to"

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Blues Shark

#2

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Posts: 1893

Apr 29 04 4:47 PM

I think that's a very fair point - I listen to Johnson far more than I do any other pre-war artist, despitethe fact that i think that Big Joe Williams and many others were excellent.

Try as i might, i can't listen to patton or pre-war House or a lot of others because, well, the recording quality is not good. I might listen to them 2 or 3 times a year for a point of reference, but my girlfriend reacts pretty badly to Patton and his ilk with the scratches crackles and bumps.

"And I was thinking how the world should have cried, on the day Jack Kirby died"

Now down in Black Bottom, that is so they say
They drink good moonshine and stay drunk all day.

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Jack of Diamonds

#3

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 2558

Apr 29 04 5:00 PM

Blind Willie McTell is pretty popular, although I think he deserves a wider audience (but then again, which blues artist past or present doesn't?) and his recordings combine great music with more than acceptable sound quality.

"Lightnin' change when Lightnin' want to"

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MaskedMarvel

#4

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Apr 29 04 5:09 PM

Sound quality, well , Blind Boy Fuller, late 1930's Bukka White, Big Joe Williams, Tampa Red...
and even the first 8 Tommy Johnson's, the 3 Okeh Lemon, MJH,Mctel, and even some of Patton BWJ and others are listenable...

Why not admit that RJ was above the others, if he is the most popular today ?

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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Jack of Diamonds

#5

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 2558

Apr 29 04 5:14 PM

I don't think it is that simple - that one is better than the other. It all comes down to personal reference, and plenty of the 'Pre-war' crew would put up a strong case for Patton. Dick Waterman reckons that Son House is the blues incarnate, and there can't be many non-musicians in a better position to evaluate the Delta greats.

"Lightnin' change when Lightnin' want to"

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tanta07

#6

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 9133

Apr 29 04 5:19 PM

I would definitely go along with the notion that Robert Johnson would be the most popular pre-war artist today. Let's not get bogged down with thinking that "most popular" necessarily means "best," because there are many who can make compelling arguments for Patton, BLJ, Son House, Tommy Johnson, etc.

Johnson's popularity has a lot to do with his unbelievable talent, sure, but there are many other factors that he had nothing to do with. For instance, having recordings that are relatively clear and easy to discern 70 years later doesn't hurt. He was also helped by a 60s surge of rockers who started citing him as an influence, and therefore, got people hunting the record racks for him. A movie didn't hurt (Crossroads). And a nice packaging of his complete recordings also put more limelight on him.

Personally, Johnson is my favorite anyway, but I also understand that I may have never heard of him if a few things hadn't gone in his favor over the past few decades.

The Buzz Brothers Band

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MaskedMarvel

#7

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Apr 29 04 5:21 PM

JoD, popularity among fans of a genre, maybe this is the best way to measure ?
I can think of recording quality, and who got more publication and covers, but , whats the bottom line - who is the best ?

PS: he was also in position that he was peronaly involved with rediscovered House , so he might payed most of the time listening to House rather than others.

Most fans probably think differently, as RJ records are probably the bestsellers

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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Blues Shark

#8

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Posts: 1893

Apr 29 04 5:31 PM

Johnson's ascendancy over the rest of the competition is pretty much fluke, I think. There are compeling arguments to say that his luck (such as it was. Poor sod was dead before it did him any good) was the result of foresight and talent - he did seem to have a different approach to recording to many of his contemporaries), but for all that it was still luck that King of the Delta Blues, released when it was picked up by young British rockers and fed directly into the 'British invasion' etc etc.

What is interesting is to consider that Johnson's popularity survived the fact that he was dead and that during the sixties many of his contemporaries were still alive and (relatively speaking) kicking and performing.

"And I was thinking how the world should have cried, on the day Jack Kirby died"

Now down in Black Bottom, that is so they say
They drink good moonshine and stay drunk all day.

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tanta07

#9

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 9133

Apr 29 04 5:44 PM

Even if he didn't "luck out" by catching the eye of the blues rockers, I think that Johnson would still have a strong following in the blues community just because he was so damn good.

The Buzz Brothers Band

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MaskedMarvel

#10

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Apr 29 04 5:49 PM

BTW, I'm not personaly RJ fan, I can name easily name 20 artists that I like better than him, but I admit, he is the most popular, so he is probably the best...

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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Blues Shark

#11

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Posts: 1893

Apr 29 04 5:55 PM

Oh, no doubt about that at all, but whether or not he would have been the 'dominant' force that he is must surely be questionable?

After all , until that album came out, he was a forgotten footnote in blues history. But as in all things, the race is raely to the swift, to coin a cliche. Sure enough talent will always out in a community as small as the blues, but there will always be discussion as to who is the best etc.

For example, Johnson might (or might not be) the 'best' if judged on the popularity of his recordings, but inside the blues community, I doubt he's the best loved.

"And I was thinking how the world should have cried, on the day Jack Kirby died"

Now down in Black Bottom, that is so they say
They drink good moonshine and stay drunk all day.

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Blues Shark

#12

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Posts: 1893

Apr 29 04 5:58 PM

I'm not sure abou that MM. I mean, by that logic aren't the Scissor Sisters the best right now? There anodyne nonsense is elling by the bucket load right now...

"And I was thinking how the world should have cried, on the day Jack Kirby died"

Now down in Black Bottom, that is so they say
They drink good moonshine and stay drunk all day.

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MaskedMarvel

#13

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Apr 29 04 5:58 PM

Blusshark, loved is not nessesserily means a lot. People have sympathy for one rather then other , even less skillful artist have someone who love them. I don't know if a talent means a lot because it's hard to measure talent. I find it easier (for me) to measure the output rather than the talent.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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MaskedMarvel

#14

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Apr 29 04 6:01 PM

Bluesshark , are they most popular among Blues fans ? The most popular in the world might be some singer in china with 2 or so billion fans...

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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Blues Shark

#15

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Posts: 1893

Apr 29 04 6:12 PM

Ah, ok, if we are talking about just Blues fans thats a different matter, but i think there are still degrees here.

As i said earlier my choice is dictated by my tolerance for the lower quality recordings of some of Johnson's contemporaries. I'm a blues fan, but maybe not as 'hardcore' (for want of a better term) as someone who is willing to shell out the readies for the Revenant Charlie Patton set, which might be enough to turn me from an occasional Charlie Patton listener to it being a once a day experience.

I'm not making a judgement there about either Johnson or Patton, just explaining why I listen to Johnson more than Patton. As it happens I do prefer Johnson to Patton, but that might be down to familiarty as much as anything.

I mean, I dig Tommy McClennan as much as I dig most other pre-war performers, but I'm not about to try and argue his corner in terms of technical merit or claim him as the 'best' of anything.

"And I was thinking how the world should have cried, on the day Jack Kirby died"

Now down in Black Bottom, that is so they say
They drink good moonshine and stay drunk all day.

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Blues Shark

#16

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Posts: 1893

Apr 29 04 6:23 PM

Well, 'Loved' is an imprecise term for what I was trying to get at.

I'll think about it a little and try and refine the idea.

"And I was thinking how the world should have cried, on the day Jack Kirby died"

Now down in Black Bottom, that is so they say
They drink good moonshine and stay drunk all day.

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MaskedMarvel

#17

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Apr 29 04 6:52 PM

QUOTE (tanta07 @ Apr 29 2004, 05:19 PM)

I would definitely go along with the notion that Robert Johnson would be the most popular pre-war artist today. Let's not get bogged down with thinking that "most popular" necessarily means "best," because there are many who can make compelling arguments for Patton, BLJ, Son House, Tommy Johnson, etc.

Johnson's popularity has a lot to do with his unbelievable talent, sure, but there are many other factors that he had nothing to do with. For instance, having recordings that are relatively clear and easy to discern 70 years later doesn't hurt. He was also helped by a 60s surge of rockers who started citing him as an influence, and therefore, got people hunting the record racks for him. A movie didn't hurt (Crossroads). And a nice packaging of his complete recordings also put more limelight on him.

Personally, Johnson is my favorite anyway, but I also understand that I may have never heard of him if a few things hadn't gone in his favor over the past few decades.

Tanta, about RJ, I don't know if someone ever calculated it, but I think that since the 1960's RJ's records were the pre-war bestsellers.

So I can't tell if musically RJ is the best, it's not in my opinion anyway, but as a Bluesman he is the best, because the popularity, the covers, the myth, the fans(EC,Keith Richards,Hammond, Elmore James, Rory Block, and Muddy Waters... partial list...).

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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Blueswriter

#18

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6748

Apr 29 04 7:07 PM

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Apr 29 2004, 05:49 PM)

BTW, I'm not personaly RJ fan, I can name easily name 20 artists that I like better than him, but I admit, he is the most popular, so he is probably the best...

There is a major difference between which Pre-war artist is the most popular and which is the best. Robert Johnson is, in my opinion, the most popular, without question, and the fact that The Complete Recordings has sold in excess of two-million copies bears that out. However, during Robert's life, his records sold marginally (at best) and he was not very popular at all.

And, as easy as that is, I don't think there's any way to assess which Pre-war artist was the best. Who is a better singer, guitar player, harp player, or piano player is all open to interpretation. Was Scrapper Blackwell a hands-down winner over Patton in terms of guitar abilities? Was Lonnie Johnson better than Scrapper? Was Cow Cow Davenport a better piano player than Jimmy Yancey?

There is no way to come to any sort of definitive answer as to which Pre-war artist was the best. And all the criteria in the world won't make it any easier. I happen to think Son House is the absolute epitome of Pre-war Delta Blues - his voice, the presence, passion, and palpable emotion - it's all there. But for every fan of Son House, there are probably two that would vote Patton. And for every two who'd vote for Patton, there might four votes for Robert Johnson. It still does not (and will not) tell you who was the best.

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MaskedMarvel

#19

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Apr 29 04 7:19 PM

I agree.
The weird thing, is that for R&R it's obvious that Elvis is the King, for Country pre-war is probably Jimmie Rodgers, for pre-war Jazz, maybe Duke Ellington or Louis Armstrong, all because they are bestsellers and myth ... following this, I think that RJ is considered the same, for the same reasons , to be the king. Most people will probably pick him.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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MountainBlues

#20

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 2286

Apr 29 04 7:36 PM

QUOTE (MaskedMarvel @ Apr 29 2004, 02:19 PM)

I think that RJ is considered the same, for the same reasons , to be the king. Most people will probably pick him.

The slight difference could be, though, that these names are not only popular now, but even in "their day," there wasn't much question about it. I wonder if that's the case with R.J., Son, Patton....others.

MB

"I don't do any of that hardcore blues stuff where they got a one-track mind talking about how a woman ain't nothing." (Gatemouth Brown)

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Who is the most popular pre-war Blues ?

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