Royalties for family members in Pre War Blues Forum

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Royalties for family members

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angmack

Royalties for family members

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Posts: 1698

Sep 7 07 7:45 PM

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Does anyone know any stories about family members receiving royalties for deceased prewar blues artists?

angmack

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mississippijohnhurt1928

#1

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 3638

Sep 7 07 7:53 PM

Well, Robert Wilkins' (Daughter, was it?) and probably some other family members sued The Rolling Stones for not giving Robert credit for "Prodigal Son" and got a good amount of money.

.....I think....

Calvin, The Hoy Hoy Boy

Currently The Proud Owner Of 230 Different Piano Red Recordings (Plus Over 1.5 Hours Of Unreleased Live Recordings Made In 1978).

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LoneWolf

#2

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Posts: 2407

Sep 7 07 8:12 PM

Well you should ask our forum member Robick, he's related to BARBECUE BOB!!!!! Life just isn't fair.

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Robick

#3

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Posts: 138

Sep 7 07 8:23 PM

From what I've gathered im a pretty distant reletive, I think giving me royalties would be somewhat similar to giving everyone with the name Shakespeare in the midlands royalties for Shakespeares plays.

QUOTE

All the songs, three minuites long,
�� And the grooves screech depression.
Is it wrong?, the musicians gone;
�� Dead with no last session.

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Hot Ptah

#4

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Posts: 381

Sep 7 07 8:34 PM

In Dave Van Ronk's autobiography, he tells a story of Jackson Browne coming to him in the 1970s, when times were tight in the Van Ronk household. Browne said that he had recorded one of Dave's songs, which would have been a godsend for Van Ronk's financial situation. Then Browne said it was "Cocaine Blues". Van Ronk gave him the contact information for Reverend Gary Davis' living relatives, so that royalties could be paid to them.

Whether they were, the book doesn't say.

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mississippijohnhurt1928

#5

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 3638

Sep 7 07 9:03 PM

QUOTE (LoneWolf @ Sep 7 2007, 08:12 PM)

Well you should ask our forum member Robick, he's related to BARBECUE BOB!!!!! Life just isn't fair.

He is!?!?! That's amazing!

Calvin, The Hoy Hoy Boy

Currently The Proud Owner Of 230 Different Piano Red Recordings (Plus Over 1.5 Hours Of Unreleased Live Recordings Made In 1978).

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mississippijohnhurt1928

#6

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 3638

Sep 7 07 9:04 PM

QUOTE (Robick @ Sep 7 2007, 08:23 PM)

From what I've gathered im a pretty distant reletive, I think giving me royalties would be somewhat similar to giving everyone with the name Shakespeare in the midlands royalties for Shakespeares plays.

Ah, distant, but that's still pretty cool!

Calvin, The Hoy Hoy Boy

Currently The Proud Owner Of 230 Different Piano Red Recordings (Plus Over 1.5 Hours Of Unreleased Live Recordings Made In 1978).

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Delta Drifter

#7

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 938

Sep 7 07 9:17 PM

Thanks for this, Ange. I am a prewar fanatic and always wonder where my money is going. Is there someplace to find out if famiy members are receiving royalties?

I would be inclined to purchase music that has some kind of royalty being paid.

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Tom Rushen

#8

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 4476

Sep 7 07 10:00 PM

The legal battles involving royalties for Robert Johnson's son can be easily found via a google search.

Rev. Robert Wilkins' family certainly has been paid some money, and the publisher of his songs is Pete Kuykendall, a very well-known roots music scene guy dating back to the 60s, and publisher of "Bluegrass Unlimited" magazine. His publishing company can be easily phoned up, I actually did it a month ago, attempting to find out what level of interest there was in reissuing Rev. Wilkins' never-issued-on-CD 1964 recordings on the Piedmont label.....unfortunately, Mr. K was on vacation and I haven't called him back.

You can bet Willie Dixon's family are receiving money, he was a very smart businessman.

The late Mississippi Fred McDowell received royalties from the Rolling Stones for "You Got To Move", though what payments are being made since his 1972 death are unknown to me...

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Hawkeye

#9

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 7329

Sep 7 07 10:34 PM

-------------
Yes, I'm the one who posted that story ... via Rev. Wilkins's grand-daughter, Lane Wilkins ... who told it to me in 1998 in Memphis ... you might find it here by using the 'search' and Lane Wilkins as the 'subject' (or Prodigal Son) ... and Hawkeye as the member name.

When time allows, I almost always relate this story in concert, before performing the song "Prodigal Son"... of how Jagger/Richard initially claimed 'credit' for the song on the Stones LP, "Beggar's Banquet." ... and then had to give up a 'righteous settlement' (Lane's words) to the family when the ... dust settled over the rights to the song.

Not releated to pre-war ... but post-war;
Old friend, Chris Stachwicz, of Arhoolie Records secured a very hefty 'settlement' for the family of KC Douglas from the Ford Motor Company for the use of KC Douglas's song "Mercury Boogie (Blues)" ... as sung by C&W star Alan Jackson in many commercials for the Ford Motor Company a number of years ago. I remember Chris teling me this, with great pride, at the Delta Blues symposium in Jonesboro, AR a few years ago.

Hawkeye Herman
1998 Blues Foundation "Keeping the Blues Alive" award recipient
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"If it's good for the blues, it's good for everyone." - H.H.
www.HawkeyeHerman.com
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Iowa Blues Hall of Fame
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Hawkeye original articles/blues history
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angmack

#10

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Posts: 1698

Sep 7 07 10:40 PM

What about people like Charlie Patton? He had his sister Viola and he had kids. Anyone hear of them getting any money? And who exactly owns the rights to Charley Patton's music right now?

Someone told me that there was no such thing as copy write laws back then, but I am positive there were. Maybe they were different?

angmack

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Tom Rushen

#11

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 4476

Sep 7 07 11:59 PM

A lot of blues artists in those days were paid a straight fee for their performances/songs, in other words, Charley Patton would have been paid something like $50 a song.

The contract with Paramount would almost certainly have assigned composer royalties/ownership of the song to someone else other than Charley, almost certainly someone in an ownership position at Paramount. It's the oldest story in recorded music. In the 1950s, DJs like Dick Clark and Alan Freed were taking composer credits on songs they had no hand at all in composing.

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Tom Rushen

#12

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 4476

Sep 8 07 12:01 AM

Someone certainly owns Patton's songs.

From http://www.pdinfo.com/

Music and lyrics published in 1922 or earlier are in the Public Domain in the United States. No one can claim ownership of a song in the public domain, therefore public domain songs may be used by anyone. Sound recordings, however, are protected separately from musical compositions. There are no sound recordings in the Public Domain in the USA. If you need a sound recording - even a recording of a public domain song - you will either have to record it yourself or license one.

The proof that a musical work is in the public domain is a sheet music publication with a copyright date of 1922 or earlier. You will find a large selection of PD Sheet Music Reprints with complete original copyright information in our Sheet Music Section. For sound recordings, you can easily license any of our large selection of Royalty Free Music tracks in the Download or CD Section.

PD songs may be used for profit-making without paying any royalties. If you create a new version or derivative of a public domain song, you can copyright your version and no one can use it without your permission. However, the song remains in the public domain, and anyone else can also make and copyright their own version of the same PD song.

Songs change over time. Even though a public domain version exists, some versions may still be under copyright protection. The only way to confidently identify a PD version is to find a copy of the song with a copyright date old enough for public domain status. You can then use that PD version or work from it to create your own derivative work. If you work from a version still under copyright protection, the copyright owner can likely make a valid claim for royalties.

There are songs written after 1922 which are PD in the US, but only rarely can they be confidently identified without the advice of an attorney or rights clearance agency. Countries other than the US may offer copyright protection for 70 years or more after the death of the author. There is no such thing as an "international copyright". If you wish to use a song outside of the United States, you must check the copyright laws for each individual country where you use the song.

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Tom Rushen

#13

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 4476

Sep 8 07 12:08 AM

When the late John Steiner bought the Paramount catalogue rights and remaining stock, is it possible he also purchased the publishing rights to the songs from Paramount, too, in that deal?

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/cja/steinercoll.html

What does Alex van der Tuuk have to say on this?

Is it possible that people like Art Satherley or Mayo Williams owned the publishing?

I'm having a difficult time finding any publishing firm information on-line that indicates who owns various Patton songs...

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Tom Rushen

#14

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 4476

Sep 8 07 12:20 AM

Patton's "Tom Rushen Blues" is owned by EMI Longitude Music. In fact, it appears that most, if not all of the Patton catalogue is owned by that firm.

BMI Work #4377425
Songwriter/Composer Current Affiliation CAE/IPI #
PATTON CHARLEY BMI 421881663

Publishers
EMI LONGITUDE MUSIC BMI 353951547

http://repertoire.bmi.com/TitleSearch.asp?...AltTitles=False

EMI LONGITUDE MUSIC
CAE/IPI #: 353951547
Phone: (212) 830-2036
Fax: (212) 830-5196
Contact: EMI VIRGIN SONGS INC
DBA EMI LONGITUDE MUSIC
810 SEVENTH AVENUE
37TH FLOOR
NEW YORK, NY 10019

Now, the question is, who sold those songs to a big firm like that?

And has anyone at EMI Longitude Music been pursuing royalties, and if so, who has been collecting them? My guess is any royalties have been collected, they went straight to EMI Longitude and were never paid out to anybody. And if Charley sold his songs and composer royalty rights for $50 a song in 1929-1930, there likely isn't a damn thing any of his descendants can do about it.

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angmack

#15

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Posts: 1698

Sep 8 07 12:21 AM

Thanks Tom,

I knew all of this already........but temporarily forgot. Of course there was the "up front" arrangement. Thanks for the reminder. You are right, it is hard to find information on exactly WHO owns Patton's songs. I would assume it is George Buck who bought the rights from John Steiner. The issue his songs on Jazzology:

http://jazzology.com/item_detail.php?id=BSCD-21/22%20(D)

However, John Steiner's 4 truck loads of materials were shipped to the Regenstein Library in Chicago MANY MANY years ago and THEY STILL WON'T ALLOW ANYONE TO GO THROUGH IT! Apparently, there is not enough staff...yada...yada.......I am sure it is quite complicated.....but come on! WHAT'S IN THE COLLECTION?

Furthermore, I highly doubt that Charlie's songs are public domain.

With all of these different record companies making money off of Patton's songs, it is a shame that the family cannot benefit. Could you imagine being a descendant of Charlie Patton and having to PAY for Charlie's music?

Somethin' wrong.

angmack

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Tom Rushen

#16

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 4476

Sep 8 07 12:28 AM

QUOTE (angmack @ Sep 7 2007, 08:21 PM)

Furthermore, I highly doubt that Charlie's songs are public domain.

There's no doubt about it, they are not in the public domain, period. The copyrights are held by EMI Longitude Music.

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angmack

#17

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Posts: 1698

Sep 8 07 12:33 AM

I think we were writing our posts at the same time. Thanks for the publishing information. But how do we have proof that Patton sold his songs up front? Was he even paid at all?

I seriously wonder if a good attorney could tackle this one.

I don't know.....what does everyone think......Do you think that the descendants of deceased blues artists should receive royalties or not?

angmack

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Tom Rushen

#18

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 4476

Sep 8 07 12:37 AM

Whatever proof existed in the form of a contract would have been in Paramount's files, and my guess is those files are either in the Steiner collection, or they've been discarded.

H.C. Speir was the talent scout who recruited Patton, House, Willie Brown and Louise Johnson for the trip, and he's on record talking about the financial arrangments that were generally made for all of his artists: they got paid a flat per fee song, and they did not own the composing/publishing rights. Gayle Dean Wardlow was the one who interviewed Speir on that, among others.

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Tom Rushen

#19

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 4476

Sep 8 07 12:42 AM

QUOTE (angmack @ Sep 7 2007, 08:33 PM)

Do you think that the descendants of deceased blues artists should receive royalties or not?

When the late Nick Perls established the Belzona/Yazoo label back in the 1960s, he publicly committed to paying royalties to direct descendants of blues artists when it could be determined who they were and where they were.

However, you have to remember that the amount of money to be paid would have been incredibly small. These Charley Patton recordings were never big sellers and moneymakers in reissue. The Yazoo label itself was always a labor of love, and that's why current owner Richard Nevins is essentially retiring and shutting the label down.

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angmack

#20

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Posts: 1698

Sep 8 07 12:42 AM

You know, I have heard this to be the case the most. They were given a small fee upfront. I would love to read or write a book about this whole topic. It just seems so complicated.

You are right, WHO SOLD THESE PATTON SONGS TO THIS COMPANY?

Interesting............

I thought George Buck was the rightful owner of all of this stuff.

angmack

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