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Walter Horton recorded with Memphis Jug Band

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volvo slim

Walter Horton recorded with Memphis Jug Band

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 1234

Jun 24 04 11:11 AM

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In interviews Walter Horton claimed to have recorded with Memphis Jug Band at the age of eleven.

My belief is that he did not. I will give my reasons for this opinion later, but first I would like to see what others of you think - and why.

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The Blindman

#1

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 7079

Jun 24 04 11:39 AM

There are conflicting reports on this subject,

Samuel Charters reckons that Walter did record with The Memphis Jug Band at the age of 11 or 12 based on a listing of a "Shakey Walter" on harmonica on 2 of the tracks.
However there are other equally reputable researchers who do not support this theory.

QUOTE

Big Walter Horton's recording career began in 1951, when he and Memphis guitarist Jimmy DeBerry cut four sides for Modern/RPM Records

I'll be interested to see what emerges during this thread.

blindman

Aberdeen - Scotland

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Not even Forumer is Gonna Put Me Down!

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MaskedMarvel

#2

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Jun 24 04 12:49 PM

QUOTE (blindman @ Jun 24 2004, 01:39 PM)

a listing of a "Shakey Walter" on harmonica on 2 of the tracks.

What are the track's titles ?

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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Jack of Diamonds

#3

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 2558

Jun 24 04 12:55 PM

I've got a vague memory of reading it somewhere, and it strikes me as believable. It would be interesting to know when Walter first advanced the claim - if it was in the 60s or later I think it has more credibility as if he was telling tall tales to gullible enthusiasts he would have named someone bigger, like Johnson or Son House.

Having just googled it, a lot of references come up, although that does not necessarily equal proof.

"Lightnin' change when Lightnin' want to"

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The Blindman

#4

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 7079

Jun 24 04 1:02 PM

Marvel here's the session:

06/09/27 (THU)
Chicago
Will Shade-guitar, vocal
Ben Ramey-kazoo, vocal
Will Weldon-guitar
Charlie Polk-jug
"Shakey Walter"-harmonica

tracks:
Sometimes I Think I Love You
Sunshine Blues
Memphis Boy Blues
I'm Looking For The Bully Of The Town

Aberdeen - Scotland

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Not even Forumer is Gonna Put Me Down!

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MaskedMarvel

#5

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Jun 24 04 1:18 PM

I don't have sunshine blues. Any record store online site to have a preview of this ?

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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The Blindman

#6

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 7079

Jun 24 04 3:13 PM

You could try this site. jug bands

blindman

Aberdeen - Scotland

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Not even Forumer is Gonna Put Me Down!

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Les Forgue

#7

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6205

Jun 24 04 3:22 PM

QUOTE (blindman @ Jun 24 2004, 07:39 AM)

There are conflicting reports on this subject,

Samuel Charters reckons that Walter did record with The Memphis Jug Band at the age of 11 or 12 based on a listing of a "Shakey Walter" on harmonica on 2 of the tracks.
However there are other equally reputable researchers who do not support this theory.

QUOTE

Big Walter Horton's recording career began in 1951, when he and Memphis guitarist Jimmy DeBerry cut four sides for Modern/RPM Records

I'll be interested to see what emerges during this thread.

blindman

Interesting about his nickname Shaky going all the way back to childhood, just like Wolf and Muddy.

Les from Chicago

"Nobody sits on a rolling stone".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMRWhmqJwHc

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MaskedMarvel

#8

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Jun 24 04 5:28 PM

I can't play that song preview in the jug band link. If it's true it's interesting , Casey Bill was also a teen ager so maybe it was a strategy of Will Shade to let a few kids to play with his band from time to time.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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volvo slim

#9

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 1234

Jun 24 04 6:32 PM

The following excerpt from chapter 8, �The Memphis Jug Bands�, in The Country Blues by Samuel B Charters (1959) can perhaps give some substance to the discussion.
(�Them� refers to Memphis Jug Band, and �Son� is of course Will Shade - �Son Brimmer�)

Victor brought them up to Chicago to record again in June, and they added a tall, thin harmonica player named �Shakey Walter� for the trip. They recorded on the ninth of June; then they had an offer from the Grand Central Theatre in Chicago to appear with the Butterbeans and Susie review. They decided to do a jungle act with everybody in jungle costumes and �Shakey Walter� holding a large rattlesnake. They got the snake and pulled its fangs, but when they were having the dress rehearsal the snake got loose and started for a rat hole in the wall of the auditorium where they were rehearsing. Shakey caught it behind the neck and they finally got it back into its box, but they decided that they�d better not feed it too much so it wouldn�t have strength to wiggle. They opened at the Grand on Monday, June 20, 1927, wearing their grass skirts and playing their guitars. Shakey and a girl from the chorus took turns holding the snake and singing. Son played �Newport Blues� and they played some instrumental numbers and the audience seemed to like it very much. Ma Rainey heard about the act and booked them into Gary, Indiana., for her show the next week.

At Gary the act came to a disastrous close. One of Ma�s chorus girls was from the country and she felt sorry for the snake because nobody was feeding it. She gave it some food without bothering to tell anybody. In the middle of the show the revived snake began inching out of the hand of the little chorus girl who was dancing with it. It finally got its head free enough to turn around and nip her. It didn�t have any fangs, but it had small teeth, and she screamed and let go. The snake immediately started for the footlights, since everybody was on stage, and the theatre panicked. The first ten rows of the audience climbed over the back of the seats, the orchestra scrambled under the stage, and Ma, fat as she was, jumped on top of the grand piano. Shakey made a dive for the snake and got it just as it got into the orchestra pit. He scrambled to his feet, waving the snake, pretending to talk to it in a nonsense dialect. He started to dance around the stage with it and Son finally came to enough to start playing. After a moment of hesitation the audience gingerly started back to the seats and finally decided it was all part of the act. They got rousing ovations. From Ma, herself, they got considerably less than an ovation. �If you bring that --- snake on this stage again I�ll have everyone of you put in jail.� Without the snake their act wasn�t very exciting, and they went back to Memphis.

In my 1969 edition of Godrich-Dixon �Shakey Walter� is listed as the harmonica player on two tracks only, Sometimes I think I love you and Sunshine Blues, both recorded in Chicago Thursday 9 June 1927.

Göteborg (Gothenburg), Sverige (Sweden, Schweden, Suède, Suecia)

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volvo slim

#10

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 1234

Jun 24 04 6:38 PM

QUOTE (Les Forgue @ Jun 24 2004, 06:22 PM)

Interesting about his nickname Shaky going all the way back to childhood, just like Wolf and Muddy.

The full nick name should be Shakeyhead. It referred to a nervous tic. According to Honeyboy Edwards, Hortons shaking was even worse in younger days. Horton himself hated the name: "I don't like that Shakey. I am Big Walter."

Göteborg (Gothenburg), Sverige (Sweden, Schweden, Suède, Suecia)

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volvo slim

#11

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 1234

Jun 24 04 6:42 PM

QUOTE

Big Walter Horton's recording career began in 1951, when he and Memphis guitarist Jimmy DeBerry cut four sides for Modern/RPM Records

Big Walter's recording career started in 1939 when he accompanied Little Buddy Doyle on ten tracks (of which two remain unissued, as far as I know).

Göteborg (Gothenburg), Sverige (Sweden, Schweden, Suède, Suecia)

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checker758

#12

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Posts: 962

Jun 24 04 6:57 PM

QUOTE (blindman @ Jun 24 2004, 03:02 PM)

Marvel here's the session:

06/09/27 (THU)
Chicago
Will Shade-guitar, vocal
Ben Ramey-kazoo, vocal
Will Weldon-guitar
Charlie Polk-jug
"Shakey Walter"-harmonica

tracks:
Sometimes I Think I Love You
Sunshine Blues
Memphis Boy Blues
I'm Looking For The Bully Of The Town

It doesn't seem very plausible to me. Why would the Memphis Jug Band carry an 11 year old boy who sounded just like Will Shade all the way from Memphis to Chicago to play on one of their records, when they already had Will Shade? I don't have the original 78, but unless it was released as "The Memphis Jug Band featuring 11 year old Boy Wonder harp whiz Shakey Walter" in order to capitalize on the novelty of having a boy harp blower, I'd give it about as much credence as his claims that he taught Little Walter and both Sonny Boys everything they knew.

You also have to consider the source of the "Shakey Walter" ID in Blues Records - where did that come from? Walter himself? Third-hand hearsay from someone who wasn't there? Or from a session log sheet?

Disclaimer - I'm not in a position to listen to the record right now, so I can't comment on the aural evidence if any. If Shade is singing on this record while the harmonica is also playing in the background, it does add a little more credence to the Big Walter theory.

Scott

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volvo slim

#13

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 1234

Jun 24 04 7:17 PM

QUOTE (checker758 @ Jun 24 2004, 09:57 PM)

It doesn't seem very plausible to me.� Why would the Memphis Jug Band carry an 11 year old boy who sounded just like Will Shade all the way from Memphis to Chicago to play on one of their records, when they already had Will Shade?� I don't have the original 78, but unless it was released as "The Memphis Jug Band featuring 11 year old Boy Wonder harp whiz Shakey Walter" in order to capitalize on the novelty of having a boy harp blower, I'd give it about as much credence as his claims that he taught Little Walter and both Sonny Boys everything they knew.

You also have to consider the source of the "Shakey Walter" ID in Blues Records - where did that come from?� Walter himself?� Third-hand hearsay from someone who wasn't there?� Or from a session log sheet?

Disclaimer - I'm not in a position to listen to the record right now, so I can't comment on the aural evidence if any.� If Shade is singing on this record while the harmonica is also playing in the background, it does add a little more credence to the Big Walter theory.

Scott

checker758 - I share all your reasons for doubt. And there are more.

Is it plausible that Walters mother would have allowed her ten - eleven year old child to go to Chicago with a bunch of jug band musicians?

The original source of this "information" I think is Will Shade, read the excerpt from Charters' The Country Blues I have posted earlier in this thread. Why isn't it mentioned anywhere in this hilarious story, that its hero is a pre-teen child???

There is no harmonica behind the singing on Sometimes I think I Love You. It is only present on some instrumental choruses. Yazoo CD 1067 Memphis Jug Band says Will Shade. I haven't heard Sunshine Blues.

Göteborg (Gothenburg), Sverige (Sweden, Schweden, Suède, Suecia)

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MaskedMarvel

#14

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Jun 24 04 7:49 PM

Did Shade recognized "Shakey Walter" as "Big Walter" ?

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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Muddylives

#15

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 5137

Jun 25 04 8:43 AM

QUOTE (volvo slim @ Jun 24 2004, 08:42 PM)

QUOTE

Big Walter Horton's recording career began in 1951, when he and Memphis guitarist Jimmy DeBerry cut four sides for Modern/RPM Records

Big Walter's recording career started in 1939 when he accompanied Little Buddy Doyle on ten tracks (of which two remain unissued, as far as I know).

I thought that there was some dispute as to whether the harmonica player on the Little Buddy Doyle records is really Big Walter. It doesn't sound much like him. Of course, his style might have evolved later.

Muddy

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checker758

#16

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Posts: 962

Jun 25 04 1:42 PM

QUOTE (Muddy Lives @ Jun 25 2004, 10:43 AM)

QUOTE (volvo slim @ Jun 24 2004, 08:42 PM)

QUOTE

Big Walter Horton's recording career began in 1951, when he and Memphis guitarist Jimmy DeBerry cut four sides for Modern/RPM Records

Big Walter's recording career started in 1939 when he accompanied Little Buddy Doyle on ten tracks (of which two remain unissued, as far as I know).

I thought that there was some dispute as to whether the harmonica player on the Little Buddy Doyle records is really Big Walter. It doesn't sound much like him. Of course, his style might have evolved later.

I've listened pretty closely to the Little Buddy Doyle tracks, and I believe it probably is Walter Horton on harmonica. I agree that the harp playing doesn't sound exactly like his later, more famous recordings, but it is similar in some ways. The playing sounds to me like it's in a more general "Memphis style", rather than what we now think of as a pretty well-defined Horton style. But some of the underlying elements, like the precussive attack on some notes, and the depth of tone, seem to be there. Also, I vaguely recall that some of Horton's Memphis cronies from that era have testified that it was he was on those sessions, and I don't know of any other harp player who has ever claimed them, or been suggested or given credit.

Scott

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Muddylives

#17

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 5137

Jun 25 04 1:48 PM

thanks, Scott. That sounds convincing enough for me.

Muddy

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The Blindman

#18

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 7079

Jun 25 04 2:14 PM

QUOTE (checker758 @ Jun 25 2004, 03:42 PM)

I've listened pretty closely to the Little Buddy Doyle tracks, and I believe it probably is Walter Horton on harmonica. I agree that the harp playing doesn't sound exactly like his later, more famous recordings, but it is similar in some ways. The playing sounds to me like it's in a more general "Memphis style", rather than what we now think of as a pretty well-defined Horton style. But some of the underlying elements, like the precussive attack on some notes, and the depth of tone, seem to be there. Also, I vaguely recall that some of Horton's Memphis cronies from that era have testified that it was he was on those sessions, and I don't know of any other harp player who has ever claimed them, or been suggested or given credit.

Scott

Hammie Nixon also claimed these recordings, and Walter had already left Memphis at the time the recordings were made.

QUOTE

In 1937, Walter went to Chicago where he played as a street musician, but he did not stay. He must have returned to Memphis soon after since he claimed that he played harmonica on guitarist Little Buddy Doyle's July 1939 sessions, recorded in Memphis, although the session details do not identify him positively. Hammie Nixon, who played harmonica with Sleepy John Estes, added confusion to this issue by saying that he had played on the same sessions.

Interesting debate this.

blindman

Aberdeen - Scotland

user posted image

Not even Forumer is Gonna Put Me Down!

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MaskedMarvel

#19

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Deepest Blue

Posts: 6919

Jun 25 04 2:40 PM

I don't own whole the Little Buddy & Big Walter stuff, so maybe some of that can give different results, but "lost baby" and "grief" compared to Hammie Nixon +- about the same time with Estes or Bonds , it doesn't sounds like Nixon.

All the above written is in my opinion unless it is someone else's opinion, or a fact.

Location: Zur Moshe, Israel

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checker758

#20

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Posts: 962

Jun 25 04 7:31 PM

QUOTE (blindman @ Jun 25 2004, 04:14 PM)

Hammie Nixon also claimed these recordings, and Walter had already left Memphis at the time the recordings were made.

QUOTE

In 1937, Walter went to Chicago where he played as a street musician, but he did not stay. He must have returned to Memphis soon after since he claimed that he played harmonica on guitarist Little Buddy Doyle's July 1939 sessions, recorded in Memphis, although the session details do not identify him positively. Hammie Nixon, who played harmonica with Sleepy John Estes, added confusion to this issue by saying that he had played on the same sessions.

I don't recall hearing the Hammie Nixon claim, but it's interesting. I'm going to pull out some early examples of Hammie Nixon when I get home and compare the playing to the Buddy Doyle recordings.

As for Horton being in Chicago in 1937, I don't think that necessarily says anything one way or the other about the possibility of him being on the Doyle session. Even back then Memphis and Chicago were only a day apart by train, and less than that by car. Horton was known to have traveled back and forth between Chicago and Memphis a number of times - for instance he was in Chicago recording with Gus Jenkins in January of '53 but back in Memphis for a session with Sun the next month, then back in Chicago again shortly after that. Now, if he was listed on a session in Chicago on the same exact date as the Doyle session in Memphis I think it would be a little fishy, but that's not the case, so I don't think his presence in Chicago on an unspecified date in 1937 would preclude him from playing on the Doyle session.

Scott

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Walter Horton recorded with Memphis Jug Band

Walter Horton recorded with Memphis Jug Band